Terry Real on Modern Love

A superior complement to my conversation with Terry

I don’t suffer from false modesty, so take it as well considered when I say that this Modern Love interview with couples therapist Terry Real is better than my recent conversation with him.

My conversation was good, but I moved too farst. I knew too much about Terry already and didn’t want to spend precious podcasting time covering the basics. Also, and this isn’t Terry-specific, I’m just easily bored. I don’t like going over territory that is already familiar to me. This is usually more of a strength than a weakness of my podcast, I think, because it allows me to go deeper and get into more nuance with my guests than is typical. I assume, if you’re listening, that you already share a lot of my reference points and have at least a Wikipedia level knowledge of the topic under discussion.

This approach surely lowers the upper ceiling of my potential audience. Most people don’t know the basics of the topics I’m addressing, so they’re not going to want to listen if the host isn’t willing to structure the conversation so that you get those basics. That’s fine. I’m happy providing a boutique service to my niche of listeners and potential listeners.

BUT it’s good to recognize when that approach falls short, even by my fancy pants standards. Anna Martin, the Modern Love host, did a better interview with Terry than I did, because she used her knowledge of his work to set him up to say the most evocative and emotional things that he says.

I wasn’t interested in asking him about the terrible abuse he suffered at the hands of his alcoholic dad, because I’d read about it in his book, then talked to him about it in other conversations I’d had with him, then written about it. I know the story. But it’s incredible material, and Terry’s emotion when he’s talking about it is powerful. It’s really good audio.

Terry also has a lot of very well-honed, often quite funny lines that he delivers well. 99% of the listeners to the Modern Love podcast haven’t heard them before, so it’s smart for Martin set him up to say them again, which she does very artfully.

I just couldn’t bring myself to do it. I’ve heard the lines before. They’re good lines, but I don’t want to hear them again. Some of that is boredom. Some of it is pride (I don’t want to be interchangeable with other interviewers). And some of it is a genuine fear that it’ll disrupt the connection I’m trying to create in the conversation, if I feel like Terry is giving me his standard wrap.

I don’t regret not doing it, really. The stakes were low. But if I had to do it over again, I’d probably split the difference. When you’re with a guest who is just really good at doing a certain thing, it’s silly to steer him or her away from doing it. And a bit more of the basics, in many of my conversations, would probably help anchor everyone, including those people who are already familiar with the topic or person.

So listen to the Modern Love interview with Terry, and then if you haven’t already, listen to mine for the bonus nuance.